135: Explaining the Johnny Hunt v. Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) Lawsuit. Guest: Melissa J. Hogan

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Welcome to episode 135 of the Untangled Faith

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podcast. Today I'm joined by my friend Melissa J. Hogan for

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a conversation about the lawsuit between Johnny Hunt and the

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sbc, what some people are getting wrong, and the significance of

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the resolution and memorandum from the judge. I am

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really excited to share this episode with you.

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I'm Amy Fritz and you're listening to the Untangled Faith

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Podcast, a podcast for anyone who has found themselves

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confused or disillusioned, mentioned in their faith journey. If you want to hold on to

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your faith while untangling it from all that is not good or true, this

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is the place for you. Welcome to the podcast,

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Melissa. Thanks for having me, Amy. There's a lot

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of things happening in the world right now, and there was one thing in particular

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that I wanted you to be here to chat with us

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about. It is a lawsuit involving the

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SBC that was just my understanding is it was tossed out. But you're the

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attorney, so I wanted you to kind of explain

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what was happening with this case. And, and let's

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just do that. First of all, give us a summary of this lawsuit

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and where we're at. I will preface that with the fact that I

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am an attorney for one of the two attorneys with

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Boschevichin for the witness in the case,

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the primary witness who was not a party to the suit.

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So in some of these areas, I'm going to talk about generalities.

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I'm obviously going to be careful about disclosing anything that

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is privileged, but there's a lot that's public in this case. When you say that

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the person that you worked with is not a party to the case, you're saying

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this person is neither the defendant or the person

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who's bringing the case, Correct? Right. Yes. So this

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case was the genesis of this case is

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in the Guidepost Report, which a lot of people are probably familiar with, if they

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know anything about SBC or abuse or things like that. But the

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sbc, a lot came out about covering up abuse.

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And there was a huge article in the Houston Chronicle a number of years

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ago. And so the messengers to the SBC

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prompted a process to examine the

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SBC's behavior in receiving complaints of abuse, tracking abusive

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pastors and or covering up abuse. And that resulted

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in a large investigation through which they hired

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a company called Guidepost Solutions. And

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the end result was a 200 and something

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page report that was supposed to look at, you know,

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in what ways did they know about abuse, cover it up,

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enable it, and also any potential abuse within the

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ranks of leadership of the sbc.

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And as part of that, they received

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complaints about different individuals that some of which

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they had had before and some of which they had not. And one that

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they had not known about was an allegation against a

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former president of the SBC named Johnny

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Hunt. And the allegation was that he

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groomed the victim while he was president of the

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SBC and he sexually assaulted her just after

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his term as president of the SBC had ended.

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So, obviously, Johnny Hunt was not happy about that. He

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had a pretty lucrative life on this post SBC

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president speaking circuit. Yeah. Not happy about being named in this

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publicly released report. Correct. So

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he was, you know, shunned, some would say very

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rightfully so, by a number of places that would have had him

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come speak. He actually ended up going through this process where

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pastors unrelated to his church because he

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stepped down from leadership in his church unrelated to his church, supposedly

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restored him to leadership. We have

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air quotes and restored from Melissa over here. Yes, air

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quotes restored him and what, to the esoteric leadership

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of the public Christian Respect Zone? I don't

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know. Yeah. Yeah. And so then

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he sued the sbc, the Southern Baptist

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Convention, and Guidepost Solutions for a number of different

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claims, but mostly for defamation,

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portraying him in a false light. Disclosure, public

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disclosure of private facts. A lot of these similar

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claims. If we hearken back to us discussing Johnny

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Depp suing for defamation for allegations

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that he was an abuser, pretty similar in a lot of ways to

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that. That's fascinating. So,

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because the, my understanding is because

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the, the question

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about whether this is defamation or not would

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include a third party, the, the victim of

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Hunt. That is how you ended up being hired

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and the third party ended up being brought in to

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testify. Is that my understanding? Is that right? Yes. So. So he did not

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sue the accuser, his accuser. One

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of the elements in some of these types of claims is that

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something is said publicly and the

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accuser had not publicly made these claims. They went

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to Guidepost in assurance of

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confidentiality. And because, you know,

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it had taken a long time for. It takes a long

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time for anyone to process

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through experiences that are really traumatic. So if

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you, if you've read at all about research related to

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sexual abuse as children, the average age of disclosure

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is after 50 years old. And that is because

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there's just so much that goes into lots of different kinds of

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abuse related to thinking it's your fault, being

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convinced by the abuser that it's your fault or that you wanted

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it. These are common things. We, we understand that happen

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in, in, in all different types of abuse, including

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in adult clergy sexual abuse, which is,

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you know, what we're talking about here. And so

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because those claims were never made by,

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by the victim publicly, it was a difficult,

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it would have been an uphill battle to actually sue the victim

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for defamation or those other types of claims, but

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because those allegations were part of the crux

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of the case, not necessarily whether they were true, although

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truth is a complete defense to defamation. It's

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whether guideposts and the SBC went

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deeply enough in their investigation to meet a certain

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standard in, in examining whether they were true.

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So you, you probably don't hang around

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online a lot to see everything people are saying about a case that you're

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involved in. I mean, I would imagine in some ways it's helpful to kind of

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know. In other ways it's, it's not. But could you speak to,

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like, any misconceptions you think people might have about

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what this is about and what the issue is or, or anything that

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this is publicly available? This isn't like my privileged information because of

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conversations that nobody else would know about. Well, first of all,

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regarding public availability, the, the premise for cases in the

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United States is that they should be publicly available and open to the

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public for examining the, the reliability of our

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court system, of our judges of how things are reasoned.

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So it actually takes some type of

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additional showing for something not to be public or for it to be

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sealed. So, yeah, there's a, there's a lot public in a lot of cases. And,

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and specifically in this case, except that the court

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allowed the victim to use a pseudonym, and that

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is, that's often what happens

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in cases of sexual assault, different kinds of

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abuse. So she went under the pseudonym Jane Doe,

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and the court allowed that and redaction of anything that was publicly

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identifying of her or her family. But a

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lot of people look at this and think the question is, did this

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happen? Did this happen? Did it happen how they said it

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happened? And, and while proving that

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it happened and it happened in this way and that it was

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sexual assault is a complete defense to,

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to some of the claims, to the defamation claim, for

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sure, the court doesn't even have to decide

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that. They just have to decide that, that the

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investigative agency Guidepost Solutions and the

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SBC met their burden in their

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investigation, so that they did what's kind of called due

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diligence that they had corroborating. They, they

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went deeply enough, they had corroborating witnesses, they

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interviewed people, they gave, you know, the alleged

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offender a chance to speak and, and tell his side of the story, which

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they absolutely did. And that was some of the argument in.

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In this case is. Yeah. When he had the opportunity

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to. To make his case for what he

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said happened, how did I post how many different stories

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he told? Many, many. Right. And the first

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opportunity was to guide Posts. Is that, is that

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a correct statement? Yes, that when dad Post was doing the,

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the taking the information in, they reached out in some way.

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They reached out to him twice. Yes. And. And I believe it's

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been a while since I've read some of this, but I believe the first time

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they asked him if he knew that the, the couple that

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was the accuser and. And her husband, who was an SBC

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pastor, and he said he. He didn't know them. So,

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you know, that's, that's the first kind of, you know, bland denial of.

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Of even knowing them. And then they, I

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think the second time that they reached out to

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him, he said that he. So the

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backing up a little bit. The allegations involved being

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on a trip and in adjoining

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condos. And, and this is all public in the Guidepost Report,

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so none of this is private, that he came

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into her condo, came out onto her balcony, and

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then sexually assaulted her inside her condo.

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So his second statement was, I was never on her

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balcony. I was never in her condo. And there was

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no contact whatsoever. So the first was, I

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don't know this person. Yeah, well, don't. Don't know this couple or the

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pastor. Don't know this couple. Second was, I was never in

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that area. Yeah. And. And

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so part of the crux of the case was he was saying, well, they didn't

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know my side of the story. But when you, when you

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tell falsehoods, that's why they don't know, can you

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really blame them? And that's part of what the court said. You know, you.

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They. The court went through, you know, the number of different

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stories that he had told, because then eventually, and

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as part of this coming out, I think when he publicly,

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when the report came out and he had to make some kind of public statement,

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I think it was something to the effect of, well, this was a, you know,

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a consensual sexual encounter with someone who was not my wife.

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And so that was the third. The third, at least the third story.

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Wow. And then at some point, he insinuates

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what I call kind of the fourth story was he insinuates that she was,

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you know, after him or, you know, some other. There's a lot

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of changing of the Story. Yeah, from. So the first thing I

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thought of when you were explaining, like, the misconception about, like, is this

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about whether something happened or not? Is what I've learned

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from advisory opinions Sarah Isger and

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David French about how the court answers a question, a specific question

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before them. So there was a specific question before

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this, this judge. It wasn't about, like, tell me everything you think

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about. Make it. Make a determination about xyz.

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It was. It was a very specific thing that they were there for. So that's

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helpful. Another really interesting thing is when this report came out, you and

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I were together. Do you remember that? We were driving home

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from Illinois and it was May.

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You would have not known that you would have had anything to do with.

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This in Illinois for. In May, we're there for a conference,

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and we knew the report was going to be coming out, and

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it came out while we were driving home. You somehow brought it up on your

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phone and had your phone read it out loud because it was so. And we

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just sat there. So many pages, so many pages, taking it

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in. I forgot. I forgot that. I completely forgot

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that. And who would have thought that year,

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a year and a half later. Wild, Wild. I want

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to circle back to something that you said about Guideposts, because I think

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part of the online discourse that I've been really

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frustrated about is this argument

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from people that I would say should

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know better than to speak as if they had authority

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on something and knowledge about something that they don't. Is this

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argument that says, well, it seems to me

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that abuse victims can just randomly accuse somebody and

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with no other information out

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there, we're just supposed to believe them

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and they. They get to be anonymous and

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we don't get to evaluate their credibility.

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I would love to hear you speak to that what you can. My frustration, and

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I'm not even in the case, is that my understanding is Guidepost

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wouldn't have just been like, thanks for giving me this

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statement. I'm not going to do any other due diligence.

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I've, you know, my understanding is Guidepost understands they have

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training in, like, abuse dynamics, how these things work, and they would have

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done some additional due diligence before just

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randomly sharing something. Because the

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implications are big. The implications are very big

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because this is the very kind of implication. You're risking being

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sued for defamation. Right. Or in some

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other. For being negligent, sharing private

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facts. So any kind of organization that

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does an investigation, including, you know, the

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police, get knocked on, too, for, you know, zeroing in on

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one, you Know, potential suspect and, and you know, to the

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exclusion of all else, someone who is good at their work,

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whether it is a police officer or an investigative firm.

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You know, kind of like this. Yes. You have

246
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to play devil's advocate. You have to look

247
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at, you know, alternative theories of the case. You have to look

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at corroborating, look for, or the absence of corroborating

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evidence. You have to look at credibility and, you know,

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credibility as, as an attorney, if you are making a

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case to, to a court, let's say, you know, what,

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whatever kind of case you have a contract dispute, or if you're, you

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know, defending someone accused of a crime or if you're prosecuting some

254
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of someone accused of a crime. As a lawyer, you learn

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about credibility and ways

256
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to show or undermine somebody's credibility or what, what

257
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shows they are or are not credible. And it can be things like

258
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prior consistent statements. So the, the story

259
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that they've told in the past, not necessarily how they

260
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interpret it, because trauma, you know, the same exact

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facts can have happened, but, you know, as a

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child victim of sexual abuse, say they

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thought it was normal, so they, they didn't call it abuse. They didn't,

264
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you know, do all these things, but the same facts happen. So the, the prior

265
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consistent statements are often about, like, what are the actual facts that

266
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happened? Have those been told consistently?

267
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And, you know, were there any contemporaneous notes?

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So did you. Obviously the, the best primary information

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which often does not exist are things like recordings or

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video recordings. And you know, that's very

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rare in any kind of case of sexual abuse or sexual assault.

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You know, if it's public, maybe there is a, you know, a street cam or

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something like that, but generally very rare. So you have to go to,

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you know, other types of evidence. So like contemporaneous

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notes. Did you take notes or tell someone else

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about it at the time or closer in time to,

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to the actual events that happened. So things like that

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are ways that you can try to corroborate something

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and then credibility is its own. If, if the,

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the victim is saying this is what happened and they're saying that

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now and it's, you know, removed in time. It's, you know, are they

282
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credible and, you know, looking at, you know, their general

283
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truth telling other aspects that would suggest,

284
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you know, they're credible or they're not credible in other circumstances.

285
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So, you know, what kind of level of detail do they have and do those

286
00:17:28,744 --> 00:17:32,448
details check out? And then, so, you know, in this

287
00:17:32,504 --> 00:17:35,952
case, you had, you know, if, if you were going to

288
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look solely at whether the events actually happened or

289
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not. But like I said, there's. We're one step removed on what the court's actual

290
00:17:43,632 --> 00:17:46,560
inquiry was. But in, in terms of what

291
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Guidepost had to look at, or any investigative firm,

292
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you're looking at the credibility of the victim versus the, the

293
00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:57,728
credibility of the offender. And in this case, you

294
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had Johnny Hunt saying he, he didn't know this

295
00:18:01,064 --> 00:18:04,560
pastor and then saying that, you know,

296
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none of this was true in terms of him being on the balcony or

297
00:18:08,924 --> 00:18:12,676
in the condo or. And there was no contact when there was

298
00:18:12,748 --> 00:18:16,500
a number of pieces of evidence saying that

299
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that wasn't true, and thus he was not credible because

300
00:18:20,444 --> 00:18:24,084
even now he would admit he was lying at that point. Now,

301
00:18:24,172 --> 00:18:27,842
he can give a lot of reasons why he was lying, but he was lying

302
00:18:27,916 --> 00:18:31,718
and he was lying to protect himself. And,

303
00:18:31,774 --> 00:18:35,254
you know, then that. That reduces your credibility significantly.

304
00:18:35,382 --> 00:18:39,174
Yeah, that helps. I think that helps to frame

305
00:18:39,222 --> 00:18:42,450
it. And it certainly speaks to the

306
00:18:42,750 --> 00:18:46,518
online mob that says, you know, people

307
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just say you need to believe women or whoever

308
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that say you just believe them, you don't question them, or there's a couple

309
00:18:54,134 --> 00:18:57,740
of different things going on there. Like, in general, that's a whole different thing than

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like a company, an organization like

311
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Guidepost, and a legal standard

312
00:19:04,924 --> 00:19:08,540
for defamation, that there's different layers and

313
00:19:08,580 --> 00:19:12,412
different things that they would jump through. So Guideposts, you're saying, wouldn't have just

314
00:19:12,516 --> 00:19:16,188
said, thank you for your one statement. Right. I'm

315
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going to publish it now without going any further. So I think that's

316
00:19:19,980 --> 00:19:23,550
because some people argued it as if that's the way. It

317
00:19:23,590 --> 00:19:27,342
was when they, when they call it like an anonymous source. Yeah,

318
00:19:27,486 --> 00:19:31,038
the person is not anonymous to, to the people

319
00:19:31,094 --> 00:19:34,462
investigating. You know, it wasn't like they just sent an anonymous

320
00:19:34,526 --> 00:19:38,142
letter. I mean, that would never be published in a

321
00:19:38,166 --> 00:19:41,854
report like this. You know, the, the person, if they are a

322
00:19:41,862 --> 00:19:45,582
victim, you know, in, in lots of different courts, there are different kinds of

323
00:19:45,606 --> 00:19:49,070
rape shield laws, you know, other ways where the victim

324
00:19:49,230 --> 00:19:53,006
isn't necessarily known to the public or using a pseudonym like Jane

325
00:19:53,038 --> 00:19:56,158
Doe. But that doesn't mean they are an anonymous

326
00:19:56,334 --> 00:19:59,678
source. And in fact, they're not, because their

327
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credibility and the things they say are being checked out and

328
00:20:03,350 --> 00:20:06,814
evaluated by whatever the investigative agency

329
00:20:06,862 --> 00:20:10,510
or people are. So. Yeah, no, there's not just

330
00:20:10,550 --> 00:20:13,806
people anonymously giving accusations

331
00:20:13,918 --> 00:20:17,564
and bringing down a good man. Yeah, you know, that,

332
00:20:17,732 --> 00:20:21,388
that, that would be very, very rare. And I don't personally know

333
00:20:21,444 --> 00:20:25,240
of a case like that. Yeah. Now for a quick Break.

334
00:20:25,780 --> 00:20:29,360
Now back to the show. Do you want to speak to the doxing

335
00:20:31,540 --> 00:20:35,000
or not? There's several

336
00:20:36,180 --> 00:20:39,788
considerations in thinking about the idea of doxing.

337
00:20:39,884 --> 00:20:43,490
A. Even if you just said it, an alleged victim of

338
00:20:43,530 --> 00:20:46,818
sexual assault or sexual abuse. There's a lot of things to think about

339
00:20:46,874 --> 00:20:50,690
there. One is imagine if

340
00:20:50,730 --> 00:20:54,130
you or your daughter. Imagine if your

341
00:20:54,170 --> 00:20:57,590
daughter was a victim of sexual assault

342
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and it was painful

343
00:21:01,290 --> 00:21:05,058
and traumatic. And, you know, there are lots

344
00:21:05,074 --> 00:21:08,722
of victims who say it's embarrassing. And we say, well, they

345
00:21:08,746 --> 00:21:12,594
shouldn't have to be embarrassed. We know that now, like, it's not their fault. But

346
00:21:12,682 --> 00:21:16,262
there is. There are still layers of shame related

347
00:21:16,366 --> 00:21:19,862
to different types of sexual abuse or sexual assault.

348
00:21:20,006 --> 00:21:23,494
Imagine if that was your daughter or best friend.

349
00:21:23,662 --> 00:21:26,650
Would you want someone putting them on blast

350
00:21:27,150 --> 00:21:30,966
and you know their. Their name in a book or

351
00:21:31,038 --> 00:21:34,438
on Twitter? No, I can't. Our

352
00:21:34,494 --> 00:21:37,654
compassion, our compassion as

353
00:21:37,742 --> 00:21:40,780
people. Our compassion as

354
00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:42,940
believers in Jesus Christ

355
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:48,416
should not lean towards causing someone

356
00:21:48,488 --> 00:21:52,224
else pain in that way. Yeah. And it.

357
00:21:52,392 --> 00:21:55,840
For the people that would say it's somehow necessary in order to

358
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:59,440
examine their claims. No, you. You

359
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:03,088
can examine lots of different things without putting their name out

360
00:22:03,144 --> 00:22:06,476
publicly. And journalists, in fact, in fact do. And that's

361
00:22:06,508 --> 00:22:10,160
another aspect to consider is the ethics

362
00:22:10,740 --> 00:22:14,040
and the examination that good

363
00:22:14,740 --> 00:22:18,572
ethical journalists do. And, you know, there's a lot

364
00:22:18,596 --> 00:22:22,332
of information, I know that journalists know and that I know

365
00:22:22,356 --> 00:22:25,964
as a lawyer that we're not putting out there publicly. And that's

366
00:22:26,012 --> 00:22:29,200
because either we don't have enough corroboration

367
00:22:29,700 --> 00:22:33,540
or are, you know, our ethics say not

368
00:22:33,580 --> 00:22:37,252
to put that out there, including, you know, journalists who

369
00:22:37,276 --> 00:22:40,932
know who a victim of different types of abuse or assault

370
00:22:40,996 --> 00:22:44,644
are, and they're not putting it out there publicly. So.

371
00:22:44,732 --> 00:22:48,308
And certainly, like I said, our, our compassion as

372
00:22:48,364 --> 00:22:51,908
Jesus followers should not be to cause additional

373
00:22:52,004 --> 00:22:55,680
pain. If you want to talk about this, you can or not. But

374
00:22:55,980 --> 00:22:59,640
in regard to, you know, a pretty public figure

375
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:03,560
who decided to publish the name of the

376
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:07,432
survivor, in this case in an actual book that exists in

377
00:23:07,456 --> 00:23:11,288
the world and isn't just on the Internet, which is, I would

378
00:23:11,344 --> 00:23:13,752
say, is a pretty big deal too, when you have a lot of people who

379
00:23:13,776 --> 00:23:17,220
follow you. What I saw there was really

380
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:22,200
horrifying ignorance about the

381
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:25,666
whole, even things that should have been publicly

382
00:23:25,858 --> 00:23:29,490
understood and leaving out some things that were

383
00:23:29,530 --> 00:23:32,590
really important to the framing of this

384
00:23:33,050 --> 00:23:36,270
to say to really cast doubt into.

385
00:23:37,210 --> 00:23:40,722
Maybe we shouldn't believe this person because of xyz. And also we

386
00:23:40,746 --> 00:23:44,594
should just put their name out there if they're, if they're going to

387
00:23:44,602 --> 00:23:47,394
accuse somebody. I don't know if you want to speak to that or not. I

388
00:23:47,402 --> 00:23:50,914
had some big concerns about somebody with a platform

389
00:23:51,042 --> 00:23:54,738
speaking so as if they had authority on this

390
00:23:54,794 --> 00:23:58,030
matter. Yeah. And it was

391
00:23:58,410 --> 00:24:02,114
wildly off base. What everything I knew about abuse

392
00:24:02,162 --> 00:24:05,906
dynamics and I didn't have any insider information about the case. All I knew

393
00:24:05,938 --> 00:24:09,762
was what was publicly available. Yeah, I mean, I

394
00:24:09,786 --> 00:24:13,538
have a lot of thoughts about that. And you know, the, the

395
00:24:13,594 --> 00:24:17,340
first is that I observed a

396
00:24:17,380 --> 00:24:21,084
lack of, you know, compassion, a lack

397
00:24:21,132 --> 00:24:24,748
of being trauma informed, a lack of

398
00:24:24,804 --> 00:24:28,092
understanding of how adult

399
00:24:28,156 --> 00:24:31,644
clergy sexual abuse works. I think one of the points

400
00:24:31,732 --> 00:24:35,372
was this wasn't her pastor. And

401
00:24:35,396 --> 00:24:39,116
that is a misunderstanding of how different types of

402
00:24:39,188 --> 00:24:42,476
power work. And of course, there is

403
00:24:42,548 --> 00:24:46,374
a, a continuum of power, different types

404
00:24:46,422 --> 00:24:49,830
of power. And someone who is the

405
00:24:49,870 --> 00:24:52,758
president of the Southern Baptist

406
00:24:52,854 --> 00:24:56,422
Convention has a type of power

407
00:24:56,606 --> 00:25:00,054
over people who are either within the Southern Baptist

408
00:25:00,102 --> 00:25:03,798
Convention or much less a pastor and their

409
00:25:03,854 --> 00:25:07,206
wife who are being mentored in many

410
00:25:07,278 --> 00:25:10,454
ways by that president of the Southern Baptist

411
00:25:10,502 --> 00:25:13,990
Convention. That is an unequal amount of

412
00:25:14,030 --> 00:25:17,634
power and, and failure to recognize that

413
00:25:17,802 --> 00:25:21,218
is either extremely ignorant

414
00:25:21,394 --> 00:25:24,946
or intentionally capitalizing in order

415
00:25:25,018 --> 00:25:28,658
to make money by selling a book. Yeah. The

416
00:25:28,714 --> 00:25:31,710
power dynamics is something

417
00:25:32,330 --> 00:25:35,634
I think a lot of people don't understand. I was hearing a pretty high profile

418
00:25:35,682 --> 00:25:39,170
person talk about their experience with a very powerful

419
00:25:39,250 --> 00:25:42,722
person and how, how they changed how they viewed their experience over the

420
00:25:42,746 --> 00:25:46,580
years. Whether like, first of all, they were like,

421
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:50,696
yeah, it was consensual to later on coming to a place

422
00:25:50,768 --> 00:25:54,456
like, I shouldn't have even been there. I shouldn't

423
00:25:54,488 --> 00:25:58,312
have even been in that room. Power is a,

424
00:25:58,496 --> 00:26:02,200
it is a concept that we really have to

425
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,896
look at and be aware of because we all have different types

426
00:26:06,008 --> 00:26:09,672
of power and, and influence, you know, and it's influence, power. The

427
00:26:09,696 --> 00:26:13,462
definition of power is just the ability to influence people. And

428
00:26:13,566 --> 00:26:17,270
so you and I each, by being on this podcast and you by

429
00:26:17,310 --> 00:26:20,806
having this podcast, have a certain type of power.

430
00:26:20,958 --> 00:26:24,710
And I've watched you reckon with, you know, what does that look

431
00:26:24,750 --> 00:26:28,518
like to steward it well. And we can't

432
00:26:28,694 --> 00:26:32,390
think about how we steward it well and steward the gifts that God has given

433
00:26:32,430 --> 00:26:36,182
us without recognizing that it exists. And the idea

434
00:26:36,246 --> 00:26:39,720
that somebody has to be a direct, in a direct

435
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,240
line above you in order to take

436
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,824
advantage of an unnatural balance,

437
00:26:46,952 --> 00:26:50,792
you know, an imbalance of power is just not true. If

438
00:26:50,816 --> 00:26:54,504
that was the case, then, you know, domestic abuse couldn't happen

439
00:26:54,672 --> 00:26:58,232
because, you know, we're not saying. And in fact, I think the

440
00:26:58,256 --> 00:27:01,960
argument in a lot of ways is, is that the husband is

441
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:05,224
not the direct line over the wife and not the

442
00:27:05,312 --> 00:27:08,862
intermediary between her and Jesus. That's part of the

443
00:27:08,886 --> 00:27:12,110
argument some really unhealthy,

444
00:27:12,270 --> 00:27:16,046
spiritually and physically and emotionally abusive husbands

445
00:27:16,078 --> 00:27:19,774
make. But, you know, they have a power in different ways.

446
00:27:19,822 --> 00:27:23,614
Often it's financial power or it's emotional power

447
00:27:23,702 --> 00:27:27,422
in the way that they manipulate physical power. They can be

448
00:27:27,446 --> 00:27:31,214
physically imposing or intimidating. So there's different types of

449
00:27:31,302 --> 00:27:34,010
power. And I always say too,

450
00:27:35,050 --> 00:27:38,338
for people who are what I would term

451
00:27:38,394 --> 00:27:42,150
pathological liars, they have a superpower

452
00:27:42,490 --> 00:27:46,162
that a lot of the world doesn't have, and that is

453
00:27:46,186 --> 00:27:49,890
the ability and willingness to lie

454
00:27:50,050 --> 00:27:53,410
and fabricate on a level that most of us can't really

455
00:27:53,530 --> 00:27:57,170
conceive of. We don't expect that people will

456
00:27:57,210 --> 00:28:00,950
do that. We don't look for it necessarily.

457
00:28:01,340 --> 00:28:05,028
And so when someone can lie on that level and

458
00:28:05,084 --> 00:28:08,852
fabricate and manipulate, it is a power over us

459
00:28:08,876 --> 00:28:12,452
because we're just not expecting that. Now I would argue we need to

460
00:28:12,476 --> 00:28:16,180
be. Work at being more discerning. And because the Bible talks about

461
00:28:16,220 --> 00:28:19,972
the wolves all the time and the wolves are in the church, the

462
00:28:19,996 --> 00:28:23,588
wolves are not out there everywhere. Maybe wolves there, but,

463
00:28:23,644 --> 00:28:27,124
but Jesus talks a lot about the, the spiritual leaders

464
00:28:27,292 --> 00:28:30,944
and that type of behavior. So yeah,

465
00:28:30,992 --> 00:28:34,720
I, it's, I wouldn't have. To think about wolves if they never were in our

466
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:38,512
area. If they, if they never made it into the, into our environment. Like, why

467
00:28:38,536 --> 00:28:42,320
would we need to be warned about them or say power? Even in, in

468
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:46,016
the example of, you know, our experience with Ramsey

469
00:28:46,048 --> 00:28:49,760
solutions, we were not employees there. So somebody could try to say,

470
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:53,024
well, you know, what specific power did Dave

471
00:28:53,072 --> 00:28:56,346
Ramsey have over us? But when I went

472
00:28:56,498 --> 00:29:00,186
into to meet with him and

473
00:29:00,258 --> 00:29:04,090
here's. He has control of the income of our family. He

474
00:29:04,130 --> 00:29:07,270
is a wealthy and influential person in our community.

475
00:29:07,730 --> 00:29:11,354
He commandeers the minds

476
00:29:11,402 --> 00:29:15,114
and belief systems of the thousand people that work there and clearly

477
00:29:15,162 --> 00:29:18,682
manipulated that to his advantage when he lied about me to all

478
00:29:18,786 --> 00:29:22,138
thousand people. So that is an imbalance of

479
00:29:22,194 --> 00:29:25,828
power that was really difficult for

480
00:29:25,884 --> 00:29:29,300
me to be believed by anyone

481
00:29:29,460 --> 00:29:33,220
in that situation, much less if that person, you know,

482
00:29:33,260 --> 00:29:36,852
takes that power and uses it to, to lie and kind of

483
00:29:36,876 --> 00:29:40,452
bully. And so yeah, I think in,

484
00:29:40,636 --> 00:29:44,420
in, in that specific incidence of doxxing and trying to say that,

485
00:29:44,460 --> 00:29:48,212
you know, to defend or explain, you

486
00:29:48,236 --> 00:29:51,656
know, that this guy was not her pastor. That's a complete

487
00:29:51,688 --> 00:29:55,400
misunderstanding of how power works. And then how power works in terms of

488
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:59,220
like adult clergy sexual abuse specifically. I'm actually,

489
00:29:59,920 --> 00:30:03,320
I just asked for the email for David Pooler Because I'm going to have him

490
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,952
on the podcast. He's an expert. He is a

491
00:30:07,056 --> 00:30:10,792
out of Baylor University, and he has done

492
00:30:10,816 --> 00:30:14,456
a lot of research on adult clergy sexual abuse. And I'm

493
00:30:14,488 --> 00:30:17,976
looking forward to actually having a more in depth conversation with somebody who's researched

494
00:30:19,076 --> 00:30:22,732
is very misunderstood and it feels like a really new thing for people to

495
00:30:22,756 --> 00:30:26,200
wrap their, their minds around. And so I don't blame people

496
00:30:26,580 --> 00:30:30,172
entirely for not getting it. And there is a little education

497
00:30:30,276 --> 00:30:33,772
gap there, and I think people are leaning into it a little more. I have

498
00:30:33,796 --> 00:30:37,356
not listened to the recent podcast series all the Buried Women

499
00:30:37,428 --> 00:30:41,244
that Beth Allison Barr put out with Savannah Locke, I

500
00:30:41,252 --> 00:30:44,806
think is her name. But the most recent episode, I guess, featured David

501
00:30:44,838 --> 00:30:48,582
Pooler talking about adult clergy sexual abuse. And so

502
00:30:48,686 --> 00:30:51,542
go check that out in the meantime. I think that would be great. I have

503
00:30:51,566 --> 00:30:55,222
already listened to it. Oh, was it good? Yeah. David and I met and we

504
00:30:55,246 --> 00:30:59,062
had some great conversations. Yeah. Smart guy. And I'm such a

505
00:30:59,086 --> 00:31:02,662
nerd for research and, you know, publishing research

506
00:31:02,766 --> 00:31:06,486
and, and understanding things, using, using

507
00:31:06,558 --> 00:31:09,628
frameworks to educate people. And he's, he's really good at that.

508
00:31:09,734 --> 00:31:13,420
Yeah. So what was the ruling from the judge on this case?

509
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:18,208
So in this case, the judge issued what I would

510
00:31:18,264 --> 00:31:21,600
call a Pretty scathing opinion,

511
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:25,100
74 pages, which is not

512
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:29,088
super common at this level of court. This is a district court,

513
00:31:29,144 --> 00:31:32,912
which is a trial court. And I mean, this is a. Was a major

514
00:31:33,016 --> 00:31:36,780
ruling. It was dismissing almost the entire case.

515
00:31:37,210 --> 00:31:41,030
So early on in the case, the judge had dismissed one of the claims

516
00:31:41,530 --> 00:31:45,282
and this dismissed the other, Gosh, I want

517
00:31:45,306 --> 00:31:48,978
to say five claims. The only claim

518
00:31:49,034 --> 00:31:51,950
it left was not related to the report.

519
00:31:52,250 --> 00:31:55,794
Specifically, he dismissed all the claims related to the Guidepost

520
00:31:55,842 --> 00:31:59,554
Report, which included defamation claims, false

521
00:31:59,602 --> 00:32:03,410
light, publication of private facts. And the only

522
00:32:03,450 --> 00:32:07,026
claim that remained was a defamation claim related to a

523
00:32:07,098 --> 00:32:10,754
tweet that the then president of the sbc,

524
00:32:10,802 --> 00:32:14,114
Bart Barber, had tweeted related to

525
00:32:14,202 --> 00:32:17,746
that, that Johnny Hunt's actions would be

526
00:32:17,818 --> 00:32:21,458
a felony sexual assault, I believe, in any, almost

527
00:32:21,514 --> 00:32:25,090
any jurisdiction. So it was characterizing it in that

528
00:32:25,130 --> 00:32:28,786
way. And it's not that that claim

529
00:32:28,858 --> 00:32:32,536
is going to be successful necessarily, it's just that the judge said,

530
00:32:32,658 --> 00:32:35,868
well, there's certain genuine issues of

531
00:32:35,924 --> 00:32:39,756
material fact. So there's a thing called a standard of review,

532
00:32:39,908 --> 00:32:43,548
depending on when a judge is looking at a case for whether a claim

533
00:32:43,604 --> 00:32:47,372
can survive. And the standard review at this stage, which was

534
00:32:47,396 --> 00:32:51,148
a motion for summary judgment, is that there are no genuine issues of

535
00:32:51,204 --> 00:32:54,924
material fact and a party is entitled to judgment

536
00:32:54,972 --> 00:32:58,502
as a matter of Law. So what the judge said related to

537
00:32:58,636 --> 00:33:02,258
the claims he dismissed was even, you know,

538
00:33:02,314 --> 00:33:06,162
looking at all the facts that are presented because,

539
00:33:06,266 --> 00:33:09,810
you know, here's what they knew at the time and here's the

540
00:33:09,850 --> 00:33:13,390
level of investigation that they went through.

541
00:33:13,690 --> 00:33:17,330
And, you know, here's what he's saying related to what he

542
00:33:17,370 --> 00:33:20,930
thinks is credible or wrong with it. Taking all that to

543
00:33:20,970 --> 00:33:24,450
be the case, there's no genuine issues

544
00:33:24,570 --> 00:33:27,430
of the facts that are material to deciding

545
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:32,000
this isn't a claim. This claim can't survive. And so only the claim

546
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,600
related to the tweet survived. So I read.

547
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,960
I read the memorandum from the

548
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,020
judge, and

549
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,808
I remember reading it and thinking, melissa's really

550
00:33:45,864 --> 00:33:49,344
happy with this. I imagined

551
00:33:49,472 --> 00:33:52,944
that your client was pretty pleased,

552
00:33:52,992 --> 00:33:55,900
as was Boz. Why?

553
00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:00,240
Why was how it was presented and what was included

554
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:03,840
so significant? There were a number of things that were

555
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:07,728
significant about this opinion. The first thing I noticed

556
00:34:07,904 --> 00:34:11,712
was how much of the Guidepost report was in

557
00:34:11,736 --> 00:34:15,472
the opinion. Yeah. And, you know, I actually had

558
00:34:15,496 --> 00:34:18,672
to go back and forth a number of times going, wait, wait a second, is

559
00:34:18,696 --> 00:34:22,220
this still in the report? Is this still a quotation of the report?

560
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:26,764
And it was Approximately. It was 74 page report

561
00:34:26,852 --> 00:34:30,140
or 74 page opinion. Approximately 30

562
00:34:30,260 --> 00:34:34,012
pages of that was reprinted from the

563
00:34:34,036 --> 00:34:37,724
Guidepost report. That's wild. Because the whole thing happened

564
00:34:37,772 --> 00:34:41,340
because Hunt did not like the things that

565
00:34:41,380 --> 00:34:44,716
Guidepost put out into the world, said it shouldn't have been there. And the judge

566
00:34:44,748 --> 00:34:48,572
was like, not only do I disagree, but I'm going to put it in

567
00:34:48,596 --> 00:34:52,212
here again for more people, just in case you missed it. Here's the

568
00:34:52,236 --> 00:34:55,940
things related to that. This is not an accident. This was

569
00:34:55,980 --> 00:34:59,636
not a lazy clerk or a lazy

570
00:34:59,748 --> 00:35:02,436
judge. Yeah. In order to

571
00:35:02,588 --> 00:35:06,324
explain the opinion and

572
00:35:06,412 --> 00:35:09,876
explain how he got there, he felt that these

573
00:35:09,948 --> 00:35:13,732
portions of the report were relevant because in all

574
00:35:13,756 --> 00:35:17,540
likelihood, a lot of these cases go up on appeal. And if you're just

575
00:35:17,580 --> 00:35:20,858
citing to things. He's annoying his work. There's. He's showing his work.

576
00:35:20,914 --> 00:35:24,618
Exactly. And I was. So judges

577
00:35:24,714 --> 00:35:28,490
have what are called law clerks, and they

578
00:35:28,610 --> 00:35:32,090
usually assist with conducting trials, you know, at this

579
00:35:32,130 --> 00:35:35,882
level or, you know, writing opinions. They write things that are

580
00:35:35,906 --> 00:35:39,482
called bench briefs. So when a. When a motion comes to the court like

581
00:35:39,506 --> 00:35:43,002
this, the clerk. I was a clerk on the sixth Circuit of court

582
00:35:43,026 --> 00:35:46,394
Appeals, Court of appeals, which is the court above this. So if this gets appealed,

583
00:35:46,442 --> 00:35:49,966
it will go to the court that I was a clerk on. So you examine

584
00:35:49,998 --> 00:35:53,774
all the briefs of the parties and you write a

585
00:35:53,782 --> 00:35:57,534
bench brief, which is a summary of both Sides. And

586
00:35:57,702 --> 00:36:01,150
you research the case law independently, not just what they give

587
00:36:01,190 --> 00:36:04,702
you, because there's some really bad lawyers out

588
00:36:04,726 --> 00:36:08,190
there. Well, and sometimes you have, you know, prisoners who are pro

589
00:36:08,230 --> 00:36:11,790
se, and they're not giving you the accurate case law necessarily.

590
00:36:11,950 --> 00:36:15,716
So you research independently. Pro se is representing themselves. Yes,

591
00:36:15,748 --> 00:36:19,492
representing themselves. And you. You look at their briefs, their arguments,

592
00:36:19,556 --> 00:36:23,316
you research independently, and you say, here's the. Here's

593
00:36:23,348 --> 00:36:26,788
the arguments on both sides. Here's what I believe the law

594
00:36:26,844 --> 00:36:30,276
says and how, you know, how I would expect

595
00:36:30,428 --> 00:36:33,956
you would probably rule or I think you should rule. And then the judge takes

596
00:36:33,988 --> 00:36:37,732
that. Takes that all in. They don't just rubber stamp it. Obviously, they are

597
00:36:37,756 --> 00:36:41,492
the judge. And then they. And depending

598
00:36:41,556 --> 00:36:45,272
on how they come come out of the bench brief, they may ask that

599
00:36:45,296 --> 00:36:49,032
clerk to then write a draft opinion or they may write. Judges have different

600
00:36:49,136 --> 00:36:52,952
procedures. But the fact that there was that much in there was not

601
00:36:52,976 --> 00:36:56,328
an accident. And in that 30 pages was

602
00:36:56,384 --> 00:36:59,460
also about 10 pages of that

603
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:03,496
were the allegations against Johnny Hunt.

604
00:37:03,688 --> 00:37:07,480
And that's also not an accident because, yeah, the things that are

605
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:11,314
in court records. So what you say in a brief

606
00:37:11,362 --> 00:37:15,042
submitted to the court or what's in the court opinion

607
00:37:15,186 --> 00:37:18,514
that can't be subject to, like, a defamation

608
00:37:18,562 --> 00:37:22,402
claim. And so now it's in there and. You say

609
00:37:22,426 --> 00:37:25,954
it's memorialized. Does that for all time. It's there,

610
00:37:26,122 --> 00:37:29,842
which is. Was great. But, yeah, I mean, that's just one aspect of the

611
00:37:29,866 --> 00:37:33,470
opinion that I felt was incredibly significant.

612
00:37:33,810 --> 00:37:37,530
Like I said, the judge also went through the different

613
00:37:37,650 --> 00:37:41,194
stories and. And I'm summarizing them more, you know, closely

614
00:37:41,242 --> 00:37:44,922
together than. Than the court did, but went through here's. Here's the different stories

615
00:37:44,986 --> 00:37:48,470
he told. And then he complained that they didn't know,

616
00:37:48,930 --> 00:37:52,634
you know, they didn't have his side. Well, you know,

617
00:37:52,722 --> 00:37:56,510
he didn't have credibility. And. And then he, you know, told more stories.

618
00:37:57,170 --> 00:38:00,750
Another thing that was significant was that in one of the

619
00:38:00,790 --> 00:38:04,366
claims, there was a higher standard of review

620
00:38:04,438 --> 00:38:07,530
if these were public issues of public concern.

621
00:38:08,230 --> 00:38:11,566
And the court held that in analyses of the

622
00:38:11,718 --> 00:38:15,342
Catholic Church and the sexual abuse crisis there, these are

623
00:38:15,366 --> 00:38:18,862
also issues of public concern. So this Guidepost report, you

624
00:38:18,886 --> 00:38:22,606
know, in its look at how the church handled

625
00:38:22,638 --> 00:38:25,950
these things, they were issues of public concern. And so the

626
00:38:25,990 --> 00:38:29,608
threshold for what he would have had to prove

627
00:38:29,784 --> 00:38:33,220
in those specific claims was higher

628
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:36,824
than if these were more private, just a private

629
00:38:36,912 --> 00:38:40,232
matter. So that was significant. And then the

630
00:38:40,256 --> 00:38:43,944
court. One of the beautiful things I think

631
00:38:44,032 --> 00:38:47,672
that happened is the court, you know,

632
00:38:47,696 --> 00:38:51,416
I feel like they saw

633
00:38:51,488 --> 00:38:55,250
this case for what it was. They. I feel like

634
00:38:55,290 --> 00:38:58,510
they saw what has happened here

635
00:38:59,210 --> 00:39:02,562
and they, you know, highlighted the fact that

636
00:39:02,586 --> 00:39:05,650
there's no indication that the

637
00:39:05,690 --> 00:39:09,506
victim was not credible, that she. There's

638
00:39:09,538 --> 00:39:12,978
no indication she wasn't credible when. When Guidepost

639
00:39:13,074 --> 00:39:16,706
interviewed her, there was no indication she was not credible

640
00:39:16,818 --> 00:39:19,390
since that time. And really

641
00:39:19,980 --> 00:39:23,428
affirmed that in ways that I feel like was a

642
00:39:23,484 --> 00:39:27,156
victory for people who

643
00:39:27,308 --> 00:39:30,980
come forward and are being drug through a

644
00:39:31,020 --> 00:39:34,600
process that is painful,

645
00:39:34,940 --> 00:39:38,280
it's vulnerable, it's expensive,

646
00:39:39,100 --> 00:39:42,692
it's, you know, traumatic. And,

647
00:39:42,796 --> 00:39:46,382
you know, while, you know, there would have been a lot of

648
00:39:46,406 --> 00:39:49,530
additional ways in which a victim could be

649
00:39:49,830 --> 00:39:53,502
validated and have gotten, you know, some

650
00:39:53,526 --> 00:39:57,198
kind of actual accountability ways further

651
00:39:57,254 --> 00:40:00,462
than what happened here, it was still good to see.

652
00:40:00,646 --> 00:40:03,770
Yeah. In the limited ways in which the court could

653
00:40:04,310 --> 00:40:07,370
validate and show concern

654
00:40:07,750 --> 00:40:11,598
for her credibility and what has happened in this case, the court did.

655
00:40:11,654 --> 00:40:15,300
And so that was. That was important because, you know,

656
00:40:15,340 --> 00:40:18,788
Johnny Hunt couldn't really point to anything that

657
00:40:18,844 --> 00:40:22,612
Guidepost had or that it. It reason that a

658
00:40:22,636 --> 00:40:26,340
reasonable person would have uncovered that would have said in 2022,

659
00:40:26,380 --> 00:40:29,524
she wasn't credit credible. And there's still

660
00:40:29,692 --> 00:40:33,092
nothing. So I think that that's the. That was the

661
00:40:33,116 --> 00:40:36,692
court's, you know, emphasis. What did you want him to do? There's no

662
00:40:36,716 --> 00:40:40,468
indication she was not credible. And, yeah, you know, I would say

663
00:40:40,524 --> 00:40:44,342
she is credible. Yeah. Yeah, it was great. It was so

664
00:40:44,366 --> 00:40:48,150
good. And then I saw that she gave a statement and actually used her

665
00:40:48,190 --> 00:40:51,798
name to reporters, which I have to think was

666
00:40:51,854 --> 00:40:55,558
really a powerful moment of saying on my own

667
00:40:55,614 --> 00:40:58,850
terms, I'm gonna say something and

668
00:40:59,230 --> 00:41:02,370
sign my name on it. It was just really,

669
00:41:02,750 --> 00:41:05,410
really great. I want to give her a virtual high five

670
00:41:06,350 --> 00:41:10,162
from. From my little place in Middle Tennessee. Like, I feel kind

671
00:41:10,186 --> 00:41:13,510
of choked up thinking about it. There is a whole

672
00:41:13,850 --> 00:41:17,350
moment for any victim

673
00:41:18,250 --> 00:41:21,778
when, I mean, you have to be ready to come

674
00:41:21,834 --> 00:41:25,554
forward. You know, there's such a fear. Part of

675
00:41:25,642 --> 00:41:27,538
how abuse works is

676
00:41:29,370 --> 00:41:33,186
weaves this fear into you that is. It's

677
00:41:33,218 --> 00:41:37,034
hard to explain that. What if I say something. What

678
00:41:37,042 --> 00:41:39,946
if I say something to anyone? And so there's just this

679
00:41:40,018 --> 00:41:42,874
slow. There's this slow

680
00:41:42,922 --> 00:41:46,538
revealing that happens externally,

681
00:41:46,634 --> 00:41:50,010
but then this slow empowering internally. I mean, I can

682
00:41:50,050 --> 00:41:53,802
remember the first time I said the

683
00:41:53,826 --> 00:41:57,370
word abuse to someone. I was

684
00:41:57,410 --> 00:42:00,922
walking. I was. My church group, we were walking on

685
00:42:00,946 --> 00:42:04,286
this path, having a, like a women's walking day first

686
00:42:04,358 --> 00:42:08,174
time. And, you know, and so it's this

687
00:42:08,262 --> 00:42:11,758
slow empowering of is it

688
00:42:11,814 --> 00:42:15,662
safe to say anything? And then you say a little Bit

689
00:42:15,686 --> 00:42:18,974
more. And so when people question why don't abuse

690
00:42:19,022 --> 00:42:22,610
victims speak up? That's a complete misunderstanding

691
00:42:22,950 --> 00:42:26,478
of how trauma works, how, how

692
00:42:26,534 --> 00:42:30,270
abusers work to warp your mind around what has

693
00:42:30,310 --> 00:42:33,994
happened and your own agenc about

694
00:42:34,082 --> 00:42:37,270
speaking up or even examining what's happened to you.

695
00:42:37,570 --> 00:42:41,322
And you know, the slow empowering. And like I said, this

696
00:42:41,346 --> 00:42:45,146
is why, why the average age of, of disclosure of childhood sexual abuse

697
00:42:45,178 --> 00:42:48,698
is beyond the age 50. Because it has taken a long time.

698
00:42:48,754 --> 00:42:52,330
But you know, where you can slowly start

699
00:42:52,370 --> 00:42:56,202
to tell people and understand what happened to you. And

700
00:42:56,226 --> 00:42:59,658
then at some point it's, can I speak about this

701
00:42:59,714 --> 00:43:03,480
publicly? Can I How will it be received? Right. Well, can

702
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:07,272
I use my name? And, and there's going to be

703
00:43:07,456 --> 00:43:11,112
off. Well, often is blowback at different stages, but you're

704
00:43:11,176 --> 00:43:14,456
slowly getting stronger and you're also getting

705
00:43:14,528 --> 00:43:18,232
stronger in your own identity. Because part of what

706
00:43:18,256 --> 00:43:21,720
abuse does is it strips you of your

707
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:25,464
agency, strips you of your identity of who you are. And you have

708
00:43:25,472 --> 00:43:29,242
to reconstruct who am I and who do

709
00:43:29,266 --> 00:43:32,202
I believe? Because you've been trained to believe the

710
00:43:32,226 --> 00:43:36,010
abuser's story of who you are and what

711
00:43:36,050 --> 00:43:39,674
happened and going in that confidence in knowing

712
00:43:39,802 --> 00:43:43,642
you know what, I actually know what happened and

713
00:43:43,666 --> 00:43:47,450
I know who I am and I don't have to bear under

714
00:43:47,490 --> 00:43:50,586
the weight of the abuser's warped

715
00:43:50,778 --> 00:43:54,440
sense of me or what happened. And so you

716
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:58,120
have to build up that armor over time because you

717
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:01,784
know you're going to get blowback at some point when you know

718
00:44:01,792 --> 00:44:05,272
there's always going to be people who don't believe you. There's always going to be

719
00:44:05,296 --> 00:44:08,840
people who say, well, you should have done this and you should have thought this

720
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:12,520
and didn't, you know this. And so building up that confidence and

721
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:16,024
knowing who you are and going, I don't give a flying flip

722
00:44:16,152 --> 00:44:19,160
what yeah. About it. I know who I am. I know what

723
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:23,036
happened and I'm gonna stand. And you know what? Jesus loves

724
00:44:23,068 --> 00:44:26,396
me and I, I don't need their approval. I know it's true.

725
00:44:26,588 --> 00:44:30,364
I, I want to speak to the people that are listening. I know I

726
00:44:30,372 --> 00:44:34,156
have people that listen, that they haven't experienced this personally.

727
00:44:34,268 --> 00:44:37,680
They want to be an informed,

728
00:44:38,100 --> 00:44:40,840
wise person in this world. They want to be

729
00:44:41,380 --> 00:44:45,068
somebody that deals with these things. Well, I want to

730
00:44:45,124 --> 00:44:48,966
say to you, thank you first of all for listening, but this isn't

731
00:44:48,998 --> 00:44:52,598
like a happy, clappy topic. This is. This is not

732
00:44:52,734 --> 00:44:56,310
light and fluffy. Thank you for

733
00:44:56,350 --> 00:45:00,182
listening. And also go listen to go read some

734
00:45:00,206 --> 00:45:03,606
things by Dr. David Pooler. Is he a Ph.D. david

735
00:45:03,638 --> 00:45:07,090
Pooler, if you ever think,

736
00:45:07,390 --> 00:45:10,982
if you're ever tempted, world, anyone in the world, if you're ever

737
00:45:11,006 --> 00:45:14,742
tempted to just declare to the world what is true about a

738
00:45:14,766 --> 00:45:18,580
situation like this, I beg of you to do a

739
00:45:18,620 --> 00:45:22,320
little bit of educating yourself first,

740
00:45:22,940 --> 00:45:26,772
because there are people that are listening to your declaration of who is right

741
00:45:26,796 --> 00:45:30,640
and wrong in these things that have never told you their experience.

742
00:45:31,500 --> 00:45:34,640
And they will know how safe they are with you

743
00:45:35,340 --> 00:45:39,140
and how educated you are in abuse dynamics

744
00:45:39,220 --> 00:45:42,894
based on how you talk about things that you didn't

745
00:45:42,942 --> 00:45:46,382
know impacted them. Yeah, and, you

746
00:45:46,406 --> 00:45:49,838
know, we don't have to have answers

747
00:45:49,934 --> 00:45:53,678
to everything. I mean, I think that's one of the things we've talked about,

748
00:45:53,734 --> 00:45:57,534
is sometimes people think they have to comment on everything or have the answer.

749
00:45:57,582 --> 00:46:01,342
We don't have to have the answer. And people think, well, I have to

750
00:46:01,366 --> 00:46:04,990
dig into this because I've got to be able to tell people whether I believe

751
00:46:05,030 --> 00:46:08,798
this person or this person. Maybe you don't. Yeah,

752
00:46:08,894 --> 00:46:12,632
maybe. Maybe don't speak. I mean, I have been, you

753
00:46:12,656 --> 00:46:16,312
know, convicted about. Sometimes it's good to let some

754
00:46:16,336 --> 00:46:20,072
things play out and to say, you know what? I'm not legal. Things

755
00:46:20,096 --> 00:46:23,944
are complicated. I'm not sure what all is going on here. I'm not going to

756
00:46:23,952 --> 00:46:27,620
make a definitive statement about something that I'm not. I might

757
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:31,480
spend some time learning a few things, but I, I'm going to

758
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:35,336
hesitate making definitive statements. Maybe I'll

759
00:46:35,368 --> 00:46:38,980
say, here's something I've learned. Here are some patterns I see happen.

760
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:43,132
Let's see what happens here. It's different

761
00:46:43,316 --> 00:46:47,052
if it's someone you're in relationship with and they come to you and

762
00:46:47,076 --> 00:46:50,780
they say, this is what has happened to me versus, like

763
00:46:50,820 --> 00:46:54,508
something happening out in the public sphere that we don't necessarily have to comment on.

764
00:46:54,564 --> 00:46:58,332
And in fact, we may not have access to

765
00:46:58,356 --> 00:47:01,760
the information that can give us some definitive

766
00:47:02,100 --> 00:47:05,884
way to look at it and understand it. But you're right, we

767
00:47:05,892 --> 00:47:09,260
can talk about. Here's what I know about this topic. Here's what I

768
00:47:09,300 --> 00:47:12,790
know about patterns of behavior

769
00:47:12,870 --> 00:47:16,534
in abusive people or abusive

770
00:47:16,582 --> 00:47:20,422
institutions. Here's what I know about common patterns of behavior

771
00:47:20,566 --> 00:47:24,198
for someone who has experienced sexual assault

772
00:47:24,294 --> 00:47:27,926
or some type of sexual abuse or trauma. And,

773
00:47:27,998 --> 00:47:31,654
you know, and then people can look at situations. But yeah,

774
00:47:31,702 --> 00:47:35,250
I think if it's someone we're in relationship with

775
00:47:35,720 --> 00:47:39,504
and they come to you, you know. Yes. The first thing you do is,

776
00:47:39,592 --> 00:47:42,300
is support and love

777
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:46,144
and, and believe. And obviously, if there's

778
00:47:46,192 --> 00:47:49,872
information, information that suggests other ways of

779
00:47:49,896 --> 00:47:53,520
looking at it, you don't turn a blind eye to anything. Yeah. But

780
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:57,376
especially publicly, you know, we. We may not

781
00:47:57,448 --> 00:48:01,200
have all the answers, but we should

782
00:48:01,240 --> 00:48:04,964
be educated. We should learn about what it looks

783
00:48:05,012 --> 00:48:08,692
like. And, you know, I, I think back,

784
00:48:08,876 --> 00:48:12,068
even in my own life, I remember when the first

785
00:48:12,124 --> 00:48:15,972
allegations came out about Bill Cosby, and I think. I think

786
00:48:15,996 --> 00:48:19,780
it was when I had young kids, and, you know, you've got a lot going

787
00:48:19,820 --> 00:48:23,588
on in your life, and it wasn't something I dug into

788
00:48:23,724 --> 00:48:27,508
because obviously, I didn't need to necessarily have any.

789
00:48:27,564 --> 00:48:30,788
Nobody was asking me for my opinion about whether Bill Cosby was a sexual

790
00:48:30,804 --> 00:48:34,604
abuser. But, you know, many years later,

791
00:48:34,772 --> 00:48:38,188
when, you know, you really do look at the evidence

792
00:48:38,284 --> 00:48:41,900
and what came out. Yeah,

793
00:48:41,980 --> 00:48:45,740
I wish I had, as with a lot of people, wish I had

794
00:48:45,780 --> 00:48:49,452
listened earlier to know, you know, what had happened to

795
00:48:49,476 --> 00:48:52,972
these women. Yeah, I think it's a good point that we don't.

796
00:48:53,116 --> 00:48:56,780
We're not telling people that need to learn everything. That's a heavy burden to place

797
00:48:56,820 --> 00:49:00,120
on you. But to learn some things

798
00:49:00,660 --> 00:49:03,884
will be helpful. I think it makes us humble, too, to be like, oh, I

799
00:49:03,892 --> 00:49:07,500
didn't know that. I didn't understand how that that works. Now, am

800
00:49:07,540 --> 00:49:11,340
I right that there's another case involving the

801
00:49:11,380 --> 00:49:14,956
SBC that may be playing

802
00:49:15,028 --> 00:49:18,812
out? Is it the same district? Do you

803
00:49:18,836 --> 00:49:21,068
know anything, or can you say anything there?

804
00:50:04,450 --> 00:50:04,962
Yeah.