164: Birdie Mae Has Something to Say: What Faith Looks Like from the Back Row

Birdie Mae

Amy Fritz: [00:00:00] Welcome to episode 164 of the Untangled Faith podcast. Today's episode features a guest who is brand new to the podcast. I can't wait to introduce you to my friend who writes the Back Row Substack, where she says she loves Jesus, sees everything, and says it anyway. Birdie Mae is a Southern Jesus-loving truth teller, and we talk about everything from skincare to figuring out if there's room in the church for strong women.

She's Birdie Mae, and she's got something to say.

I'm Amy Fritz, and you're listening to the Untangled Faith podcast, a podcast for anyone who has found themself confused or disillusioned in their faith journey. If you want to hold onto your faith while untangling it from all that is not good or 

Birdie Mae: true, this is the place for you. Here's my conversation with Birdie Mae.

Amy Fritz: Hey, guys. Today I am excited to introduce to my listeners someone new to the Untangled [00:01:00] Faith podcast, Birdie Mae. She is an author of the Substack The Back Row, which recently was launched. I love it. I'm gonna put a link in the show notes, but the subtitle for The Back Row is Loves Jesus, Sees Everything, and Says It Anyway Birdie Mae, welcome to the podcast.

Birdie Mae: Oh, thank you so much, Amy. I'm so darn excited to be here. Y'all listen, when this, when this sweet woman called me ... Well, she actually just messaged me, 'cause we don't talk on the phone these days- That's right ... now, do we? Uh, she messaged me. She said, "You wanna be on my podcast?" I said, "Can I be as Birdie Mae?"

'Cause, you know, here's the thing, I have another name. We don't talk about it. But Birdie Mae is, it's ju- truly, Amy, Birdie Mae is my lived experience. I just put on the persona of Birdie Mae 'cause I felt like that might protect the innocent, the innocent being probably me. Um- 

Amy Fritz: It's not working. 

Birdie Mae: It's not working, [00:02:00] darling.

It's not working 'cause I'm using the same face I, I got when I was born with. 

Amy Fritz: It's a beautiful face. 

Birdie Mae: Well, you are so s- cute. It's 62 years old, darling. I done ... I'm busted up. Now, I don't mind putting a little injection in it every once in a while. Um- 

Amy Fritz: You know, I'm trying to just do what Jamie Golden tells me to do with my face, and I just cannot- Praise the Lord

keep up with all the things. I don't have the time that she has, but I do, um, I, I'm investing in the serums and 

Birdie Mae: the- I do ... potions. I do the serums and the injectables, and I just bought some sort of kit. I don't think Jamie told me about it. I probably saw it on the Tikity Tok- ... 'cause I am the person Tikity Tok created the shopping for.

Mm-hmm. And it's a little thing, and I'm gonna poke holes in my face. I don't, I don't know. It says I can't- I would 

Amy Fritz: love to see your algorithm. 

Birdie Mae: We'll, we're gonna do it. We're gonna do it. Um- That's right ... we're gonna do it on that, and, and then we can't wear makeup for 24 hours, so ... I know. We're gonna have to do it.

We're probably, probably gonna do it on a Saturday since church and Sunday me are not happening as much. 

Amy Fritz: I feel like there was a time that you [00:03:00] were, like, on social media high after a surgery. Did someone take your phone away from you? Like, you had- I 

Birdie Mae: did. I did. I remember. I had eyelid surgery, Amy. And so what had, what had happened was my doctor said, "You know, your eyelids are really heavy.

We can get it covered under insurance." I said, "God loves me more than I even know." 'Cause I had wanted my eyes lifted because I want a lot of things lifted. But my eyes were real important. Yeah. Next is my chin, but we'll get ... I mean, my chins. We'll get to that later. Um, but so I went to get this, they call it a upper and lower bleph.

There- Yeah ... it's a long word with a osis in it, like a rhinoceros, but a bleph or something. Yeah. I just call it a upper and lower bleph. So I'm in there, and they leave me. They have given me two, um, Valium. Have you ever taken a Valium? I'm telling you. No? 

Amy Fritz: No. 

Birdie Mae: Girl, let me tell you something. There's a reason our mamas took it, [00:04:00] 'cause it is a sweet thing.

It is. No wonder those women in the '60s and '70s were so freaking happy. They were, they were living on Valium. S- I have never had a Valium in my life. They gave me two, and then gave me a third one, left me alone with my phone- And apparently I was, I was live. I just went on Instagram and did a story, and I watched it, and at one point I'm talking and then I kinda doze off, and I wake back up.

I just remember the girl coming back in there and taking my... She said, "Honey, let's just not do that." And I was like, "I was having a good time." So yeah, that was my upper and lower lip. I 

Amy Fritz: love it. 

Birdie Mae: So. 

Amy Fritz: Yes. I wanna read the About section- Oh ... from your Substack to my listeners, 'cause I love it so much- Please do

and I think it will tee up our conversation. You say The Back Row Tells the Truth. I'm Birdie Mae. I've been in the pew for over 30 years. I've watched the collection plate go around and the women get [00:05:00] passed over. I've heard sermons that protect institutions and scriptures that people skip. I've loved Jesus through all of it, and I've had something to say about it for a long time.

Now I'm saying it. The Back Row is for the woman still in the pew wondering if she's allowed to think what she's thinking, and the woman who already walked out the door but couldn't leave Jesus in the parking lot. Everybody is welcome here. Everybody means everybody. I love it. Birdie Mae contains multitudes.

She can talk about her face potions and also deeply loves Jesus and has something to say. 

Birdie Mae: Yeah. I love 

Amy Fritz: that. 

Birdie Mae: Thank you so much. I wrote it. 

Amy Fritz: Yeah. All by yourself. You... 

Birdie Mae: All by myself. Um, the thing that... And, and here's the reason. I- Can I tell you why Birdie Mae started? 

Amy Fritz: Yes, please 

Birdie Mae: do. Okay. It's like one of 

Amy Fritz: my questions.

So- 

Birdie Mae: How did we get here? Oh, good. How did we get here? Well, I had been on the Tikity Tok for a hot minute. So what had happened, what had happened [00:06:00] was, um, I was... It was last September. I'm scrolling TikTok looking for an- probably a face potion, and I get a message. It says, "You can be a seller on Tikity Tok because you have 1,000 viewers."

And I was like, "What? 1,000 followers?" I was like, "First of all, how'd I get 1,000 followers?" I'd been on there since 2020 when I made six videos that flopped. Um, I think one did well. Yeah. And, um, uh, but like everybody else in 2020, we all made a TikTok or we made sourdough bread. I'm not a bread person, so I went on TikTok.

And I decided I was gonna sell on TikTok. Well, I was really, really bad at it, really bad, so I decided, "Well, let me do something else." So I, I had been playing on TikTok for several months, and a couple of months ago, about two and a half months ago, I'm sitting in church on a Sunday morning in our small group, and somebody's telling a story about meeting some women, and they had been evangelizing.

Now, I don't know how you feel about evangelizing. What's your thought on that? I've co- 

Amy Fritz: I've gone on a journey with that. 

Birdie Mae: [00:07:00] Okay. Okay. 

Amy Fritz: Yeah. 

Birdie Mae: Okay. We've probably been on the same journey. 

Amy Fritz: Yeah, yeah. 

Birdie Mae: So they're telling this story, and, um, it's a gentleman, and he's talking about these women he met. He said, "Well, now, it was a couple.

It was two women." Well, we didn't... The, the room didn't audibly gasp, but, you know, you could understand they were, they were a little- unsettled by that. Scandalized. Yeah, a little scandalized. 

Amy Fritz: Yeah. 

Birdie Mae: So he said he invited them to church and, uh, and he said... They said, "Well, we would not be welcome." He said, "Well, yes you would be."

And they ask if their children would be welcome. "Absolutely." And he's going on and he said, "You know, they would absolut- we would all be welcome." He said, "Now I need to tell y'all," he looks at the room, he said, "They got pink hair, tattoos, and piercings." He said, "But I told them they'd be welcome here." And in the next moment, one of our pastors, not our, not our pastor pastor, but one of the dudes that carries the name Pastor, 'cause Lord knows you know it wasn't a woman, um- 

Amy Fritz: Yes

Birdie Mae: he says, "Well, they're welcome, but they can't serve. I mean, we can't have [00:08:00] them serving." And I was... My husband thought I was gonna stand up and, and like throat punch somebody, because he knows my feelings on that. I believe the LGBTQ community are people to love just like everyone is to love. They're not a problem we need to solve.

Amy Fritz: Yeah, yeah. 

Birdie Mae: And he said, he, he went on about how they couldn't serve. And I, I wasn't angry, I was sad. 

Amy Fritz: Mm-hmm. 

Birdie Mae: And I got home and I said, "I'm tired of this. I'm tired of people think I'm complicit." And I was complicit, Amy, because I sat there and I didn't say anything. 

Amy Fritz: Mm-hmm. 

Birdie Mae: So I just started talking, and I ain't shut up yet.

Amy Fritz: Oh man, there is, there is a lot there. I feel like a lot of my listeners will be able to relate to that. Like you... And here's something I found so interesting about you, Birdie Mae, is I found you because of your job of y- helping [00:09:00] people use their voice to communicate what means, what is so important to them, the thing that they are passionate about.

You have worked for nonprofits to help train people on how to tell the, their story- Yeah ... that grabs people's attention. Yeah. This whole time, Birdie Mae, you were helping people use their voice, but you weren't using your own. Tell me about that. Like, w- I just... Did it, did you feel that tension at the time?

Birdie Mae: Absolutely. I have spent the last 20-plus years in the Christian entertainment industry. So I have worked behind the scenes. Um, I have produced events and shows and tours. I have helped people learn how to tell a story in a way that will move an audience to action. That's what I've been doing for the past 20-some odd years.

It's more than 20 years, but 20 years keeps me young, so we're gonna stick with that, okay? 

Amy Fritz: Yes, yes. 

Birdie Mae: If you ca- if you start saying 30-something years, all the, all the people that were- They're doing the 

Amy Fritz: math ... 

Birdie Mae: yeah, they're doing math. They're like, they were, anybody born- She is like 12. [00:10:00] Yeah, yeah. They're like, "Yeah.

Right." Um, anybody born in the 2000s, I'm like, "You were born... You can, and you can drink? What?" Um, so I had suppressed my voice for so long. The first was because it was through the church. I believed the, I believed what the church told me. I thought the rules of religion were actually the words of Jesus. I got that real messed up.

And so I started un- when I say untangling my faith, because I don't love the word deconstruction. Um, it probably is the right word, but for me, untangling felt a little softer- Yeah ... and easier in that beginning of that journey. And I, when I, when I came out, I love saying that, 'cause I'm not gay, but I always- Yeah

wanted to come out of the closet- Yeah ... 'cause it felt like a big thing. I was like, you know. When I came out as Birdie Mae, I was uninvited to a lot of things. 

Amy Fritz: Mm-hmm. 

Birdie Mae: Um, because everybody assumes because I'm a woman of a [00:11:00] certain age, I attend a Southern Baptist church, and I sound like this, they assume they know who I voted for and how I feel and what I think and the way I believe.

Honey, they were wrong. 

Amy Fritz: Yeah. 

Birdie Mae: They were flat wrong. And it was, it was the most liberating thing I have ever done when I hit, when I hit go on that first, that first video I did for Birdie Bay, and I went, "Well, Jesus take the wheel." 

Amy Fritz: Um- Yes. Yeah ... 

Birdie Mae: and he did. 

Amy Fritz: Hmm. 

Birdie Mae: But God had been pushing me into this space because I had been on TikTok, and I was trying so hard to use the gifts that God had given me to help other particularly faith-based content creators.

'Cause I... Listen, if you're a faith-based content creator and you're listening to this, I love you. But listen, throwing a scripture up with a trending, like, you know, uh, I don't know who's... Forest Frank song in the background, that ain't bringing nobody to Jesus, [00:12:00] okay? Um, and that's pretty much what I saw, but I really wanted to help them.

Amy Fritz: Mm-hmm. 

Birdie Mae: But I could not get any traction. I felt the Lord continually just saying, "Will you trust me? Will you trust me? Will you trust me?" And I was like, "Well, of course I will, Lord, but I'm gonna do it this way." But when I hit go on that thing, it was... It has blown my mind what has happened, and it continues to show...

God continues to show up in ways that are Way beyond anything I could imagine. I was shocked at how many people needed Birdie. I needed her. 

Amy Fritz: Mm-hmm. 

Birdie Mae: But everybody else needed her too. 

Amy Fritz: Have people reached out to you privately, feeling like they could not publicly list, like talk about some of the questions that they had or discomfort they had with their- It-

faith communities that felt safe? 

Birdie Mae: It has been, every day I ask the Lord in my quiet time, I said, "Jesus, are we supposed to be doing this? 'Cause it s- feels like a whole lot of fun we're having here, [00:13:00] and we're getting to talk smack." But in, y- y- you know, it's kind smack. I don't name names. I just, I just call it like I see it.

And I, I'm, I, I do my very best to make sure that everything I say aligns with what the Holy Spirit's doing in my life. And every day God sends me at least one person. I get DMs, I get messages. I had a young woman tell me, I was doing a live on TikTok, and she said, "Me and my sister send your videos to our mom, and then we have conversations about what you said."

And I was like, "What?" And she said, "Your, our mom will listen to you. We've said the same thing for years, but Mama won't listen to us." 

Amy Fritz: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Birdie Mae: The people that tell me they've... What the church has done to them, and y'all, that's not Jesus. 

Amy Fritz: Yeah. 

Birdie Mae: That's a bunch of imperfect people that make up the church.

Imperfect. And they, [00:14:00] they have been hurt so much, and I get it. I mean, I've been hurt too, but I'm just stubborn as a mule. 

Amy Fritz: Yeah. 

Birdie Mae: And I'm like, "You ain't running me off. I'm stay-" Yeah. And I, I mean, we'll get to that in a minute. I'm gonna let you- Yeah ... ask me some more questions. 

Amy Fritz: Yeah. Well, yeah, I do have a question about staying and leaving, 'cause I think that's- Mm

something that, it's just a, it's a big question for so many people. But what would you, like I'm thinking back to five, 10 years ago Birdie Mae. Birdie Mae was like just maybe- Not even in your wildest dreams as l- as like what you could show up as. Absolutely not. But, but who you are today, if you would meet you from 5 or 10 years ago, what would you tell her?

She's afraid to use her voice. She's not certain. What would you say? 

Birdie Mae: I would l- I first of all, I'd hug her, 'cause she's g- she needs a hug. And I would tell [00:15:00] her to stop being afraid, that God's gonna meet her right where she is, and I would tell her to trust the brain and the critical thinking skills that the Lord's given her, and lean into that.

Because I've always questioned the rules. I just would go along to keep the peace. 

Amy Fritz: Mm-hmm. 

Birdie Mae: But I definitely would sit down with her and say, "Darling, look at that verse again. Read that chapter again in context. Don't immediately assume that it's right because you heard some pastor tell you it's right." 

Amy Fritz: Hmm.

Birdie Mae: I think that's the number one thing. And then in 2019, when everybody went after Beth Moore, I had somebody lean over to me recently before Birdie Mae came out, and she's not all the way out. There's a lot of people that don't know about her. Um, but somebody leaned over me at church and they said, "What has happened to Beth Moore?"

I said, "What do you mean what's happened to her? I [00:16:00] think she's doing fine." Whoa. And she went, "Well, I just can't believe it." And I said, "Can't believe what? Can't believe that she finally believed them when they said she needed to leave?" Mm-hmm. And she went, and, and this, this person just sat back in her seat.

She was like, "Oops." 

Amy Fritz: So there's this thing about being women, strong women, with ideas in faith communities, probably more so in conservative spaces. I think you will appreciate this, uh, anecdote from my life. I'm an Enneagram 2, which is really, like, the perfect church lady who just wants to, like, help people and serve them, but also I just want you to love me a lot.

That's why I'm doing it. Like, um, not so secretly, like, I want to be the most loved and the most valued because- Yep ... 'cause I can kinda read exactly what you need and how you feel and even when y- you don't want me to, and even I think I know more than I do. Sometimes I get it wrong. Um, and I feel things. I, [00:17:00] I feel, I feel for people.

And I was working part-time for this faith-based company, and they had sold a digital product to somebody, and this person had... Part of my job was customer service, and they messaged and said, "Hey, I'm working with this coach, and I thought I had to buy this, but actually I didn't. I didn't need it. It was this other thing.

I've never even logged in. I've never used it. Can I get my money back?" And I'm like, "That seems like a no-brainer to me." Um, I had, like, asked in the chat online, you know, the employee chat, and our COO was like, "No. No, it's been too long. She can't get her money back." I'm like, "Does it make a difference that she thought she had to buy it, and her coach told her she had to, and she didn't need to?"

And they're like, "No. No, it doesn't." And so I was like, "I don't love this." I kind of chatted pri- privately with my immediate supervisor like, "I feel uncomfortable. I feel like this is wrong. I feel like she should get her money back." And he had, um, either sent me a, a Slack or a voicemail, [00:18:00] I don't remember what it was, and it was like he, he meant really well, but he was leaning into the Enneagram and like, "Amy, I know you're a 2, and I'm sure this is part of, like, your heart is so tender, and it's just so wonderful, but I, I'm sure this is why it's hard."

And when we... I was very frustrated at the comments that were made. Mm-hmm. I would have been, too. When we met on Zoom later, I'm like, "Hey, I need to tell you something. I thought that giving that person a refund was right, not because I am an Enneagram 2, but because I am a grown-ass woman who knows what is right and wrong, and it is wrong to not give her her money back.

Birdie Mae: Way to go. 

Amy Fritz: When I tell you he was, like, shocked, like he, he did... And he was like, "I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I did weaponize the Enneagram against you. You're right. We should give [00:19:00] her money back." 

Birdie Mae: Good for you. I love that. 

Amy Fritz: Um, I thought you would. But, like, being a woman with ideas that maybe aren't the same as the man- Right

standing on the p- pulpit or leading a group or in some sort of leadership- Right ... it's a particular sort of experience we have when we have opinions that are different. 

Birdie Mae: Absolutely. Absolutely. 

Amy Fritz: Tell me, what have you experienced that? 

Birdie Mae: First of all, I'm an Enneagram 8, so I'm a bull in a 

Amy Fritz: china shop. You are always gonna say what 

Birdie Mae: I'm just gonna say what I think, and- 

Amy Fritz: Nobody said you were a bleeding heart.

Birdie Mae: No. I have, I have, I have zero feels. Zero. I 

Amy Fritz: go to eight when I'm mad. 

Birdie Mae: Yeah, that's what a two does. Yeah. A two goes to an eight. Yeah. And, um, and when I am incredibly unhealthy, I will run over people. And when I'm healthy, which I hope I'm healthy now, I learned how to temper my Enneagram 8. For those of y'all who don't know, an Enneagram 8 is what is [00:20:00] called, I think it's called the- 

Amy Fritz: Challenger, 

Birdie Mae: is that- The challenger, yeah.

Yeah. It's the boss. Mm-hmm. It's the big personality in the room. For so much of my life, Amy, I pushed it down because I was so- 

Amy Fritz: Is it okay to be a Christian woman that is strong like that? 

Birdie Mae: No, it wasn't. It was not. It was not okay. Um, I questioned everything and was told, um, you know, "You're questioning God."

And I was like, "I think God's good with it, but okay, whatever." The thing that part- that it did is that attitude of I'm right and you people are nuts, it served me well because I remember as I'm, as Birdie Mae has come out, as Birdie Mae has developed her and shared her life experience, I started going back through my church history.

Honey, I had people send me letters anonymously telling me I was ruining the church. I had a deacon's wife call me and tell me that I was systematically trying to be di- divide the church 'cause I told her husband, who [00:21:00] was the deacon, that he was wrong for putting a football coach in as our interim pastor because I was the chairman of the Pastor Search Committee because unfortunately the church had written a rule.

You know how Southern Baptists, we love a good rule. 

Amy Fritz: Yes, we 

Birdie Mae: do. Well, we had written a rule that the head of the, what was it called? Not the, the not hiring committee, but it was like- Search 

Amy Fritz: committee ... 

Birdie Mae: the p- the personnel committee. The head of the personnel committee was automatically the head of the Pastor Search Committee.

When that crap came out on a church in Sunday, on a Sunday night, I thought somebody was going to pass slap out. I mean, you could see heads were above it. Because when they gave me the position, it was, again, no man wanted it. We hadn't hired anybody in probably six years. Under my tenure, we lost our pastor, our associate pastor, and our youth pastor.

I had to be in charge of all three of those. Now, I'm gonna tell you, I did a horrible [00:22:00] job all the way around because I think I hired a pedophile, a heretic, and a- another one, I don't think he knew Jesus at all. So apparently I wasn't very good at my job. But that, but what he had done is he had hired this guy as interim without approving it, and I was supposed to approve it, and- I said, "You can't do this."

And he goes, "Well, it's already done." And I said, "Well, you need to undone it." Um, and then I agreed that we couldn't undo it. We had to stick by the word of the church. I did agree with that, but I was mad as a wet hen. And, um, and this is also, this is the same man who looked at me and he goes, "I'm gonna tell you something."

He was the chairman of deacons, okay? I'm gonna tell you something." I said, "Well, tell me." Now understand, I was all of probably 36 years old, so I was a baby. And he was probably in his late 60s, and you know, I was just a thorn in that man's side. Kinda- that's really making me happy to tell this story. Um- ... he told me, he said, "Let me tell you [00:23:00] something," and he pulled out the Baptist Faith and Message.

He goes, "I need that man to believe this." And I took that and I looked at it and I threw it down, and I said, "I need him to believe this." And, uh, but he was serious. In his heart and mind, the most important thing that new pastor could believe was the Baptist Faith and Message. And as I've looked back and I thought, "What was I thinking?"

But the audacity of an Enneagram 8 and the stubbornness that I was born with, it kinda helped me not take on all those errors, because if I had been a sensitive 2 like you, I would've, I would've crumbled under that. But I think God was just preparing me for... And, and God knows where he's taking us. 

Amy Fritz: Yeah. 

Birdie Mae: I mean, we didn't even know TikTok existed when I was on that pastor search committee.

Amy Fritz: Yeah. 

Birdie Mae: God had a plan. 

Amy Fritz: Yeah. Yeah, being a 2 in the church when you feel like [00:24:00] things aren't quite right means that you have to risk losing the approval that you just desperately want. 

Birdie Mae: Oh. Listen- 

Amy Fritz: It is a, it is a challenge to be like, are you willing to be healthy and realize that you're, you're falling into line or being quiet, not because you actually believe all the things, but because you don't want them to not like you and to disprove- Yeah

of you. Mm, mm. 

Birdie Mae: Now, I still deal with that because we can talk about another set of things. Yeah. But under the StrengthsFinders, I'm a woo, which basically means- Oh ... I want you to love me. Once you love me- 

Amy Fritz: Yes, you win their... Oh, oh, you win us over. I- I love the 

Birdie Mae: woo ... well, I love them. I l- I'm a woo, so I will, I want you to love me, but once you love me, I'll kick you to the curb.

But I want to get you there, so I'm always seeking the approval of others. So I'm just a hot mess, so you know. 

Amy Fritz: You've got those two things kind of- 

Birdie Mae: I've got those two things ... conflict. Yeah. Yeah. And then all kind of, you know, and all kind [00:25:00] of church hurt and, you know- Yeah ... childhood trauma. I got... You know what?

We've all got a mixed bag of crap- Yeah ... we're dealing with. 

Amy Fritz: Yeah. One of the biggest questions, tensions that so many of us deal with is this decision about, uh, do we stay in a community, a faith community that we feel like we feel uncomfortable with, we think maybe is a little unhealthy? Do we stay and try to, like, make things better or just exist here as somebody that is different, or should we leave?

How do you... Tell me about how you're thinking about that. 

Birdie Mae: I'm in 

Amy Fritz: that tension. Are you just stubborn enough to be like, "I'm staying"? 

Birdie Mae: I, you know, I'm in that tension, and I'm reading, you probably already read it, but Beth Allison Barr's book, The Making of Biblical Womanhood. 

Amy Fritz: Yeah. 

Birdie Mae: And now she was, her husband was on staff, and that's a different staying.

But I told my husband after the vote, the vote [00:26:00] for, the SBC voted last week, uh, we went to church, then we had a pastor, um, a fill-in pastor who I think, I love him. I've heard him preach. I think the first time I heard him preach I was six. Um, and he's been around for a hot minute. Um- 

Amy Fritz: Wow. 

Birdie Mae: Yeah, he's been around.

Not, um, I'm only- Well, I 

Amy Fritz: mean, you're only, like, 42, so. 

Birdie Mae: I'm only... Yeah, 32, girl, 32. Um- 32, 

Amy Fritz: yeah. We're getting younger. 

Birdie Mae: I'm getting younger as this podcast goes on. Yes. Um, it's a miracle. It's a Chamy Golden thank you for the tips. 

Amy Fritz: Thank you, Chamy. 

Birdie Mae: We're re- we're aging in reverse. 

Amy Fritz: Those potions. 

Birdie Mae: Yeah. The potions. Um, but I did go, and I, I told my husband when we left, I said, "I, I don't know what to do."

We live in a small, we live in small north central Alabama, so it's not like I've got a lot of options nearby. Yeah. Um, and we had already been struggling anyway, my husband and I both, [00:27:00] me more than him. I said, "I've made a decision today to remove my name from our church roll. I will not have my name sit on a Southern Baptist roll.

I do not wanna be counted as a female. I wanna be one of the 400,000 that left." I don't know how many are gonna... I personally wanna be a pied piper and hold a pipe and walk out with all the women walking behind me. But I don't... And I would do that in a hot minute, but- I don't know how. Yeah. And I'm just being completely honest.

Yeah. I think that's what Birdie Mae... I think that if, as Birdie Mae, I am helping women stand in that tension. So for right now, I'm removing my name from Southern Baptist because people are always floored when they go, "What church do you go to?" And I'm like, "Southern Baptist." And they went, "For real?" I'm like, "Yeah, I know.

It's kind of odd, isn't it?" I will tell you why we go to this church. When we met with the pastor when we ca- started going there three years ago, he told us a little bit about his story. He looked over at me, my husband, and [00:28:00] he said, "Do you have any questions?" My husband looked up at him, he looked at me, and he went, "Buckle up, buddy."

And so we went through can women preach, can women pastor. We did the whole thing, and we agreed to disagree on pastoring. I believe women can pastor. He does not. He firmly believes that women can preach. I need to ask him how he feels about the vote, because he said, "Mary, you can preach at my church anytime as long as I invite you in."

He said, "It's my church. God has given it to me. I can share my pulpit with you." And he said, "And I'm not afraid of a woman." Now he's since left and, um, I'm meeting with our new pastor next week 'cause he invited me to help with some leadership stuff. I was like, "Have you, have you... Let me introduce you to Birdie Mae."

And so I introduced him. He said, "I still wanna meet." I went, "Well, aren't you a strange bird, but okay." Um- 

Amy Fritz: Interesting. So interesting ... 

Birdie Mae: but I will not have my name on the roll. I will not be counted as a Southern Baptist. 

Amy Fritz: Yeah. [00:29:00] I, well, I talked to my husband about this a couple, uh, several years ago now, where we were kind of processing him leaving Ramsey.

And what hap- in the end, uh, you know, most of the people that listen to this have heard the story, my, like, 17 podcast episodes about it. If you, if you're new here, I have a podcast - It's about- ... a series of episodes you can go back and, and listen to 

Birdie Mae: that will- 

Amy Fritz: About Money Mae 

Birdie Mae: Young. We, I 

Amy Fritz: like to call him Money Mae Young

that's right, that will keep you company on your next road trip. But, um, at the end, you know, they basically said, had Nathan was in a meeting with some board members and they're like, "Sounds like you lost trust in us a long time ago, and you know, if you don't, if you don't trust us, well, you know what you need to do, basically.

Like, see yourself out." Yeah. And Nathan did. He was like, "Yeah, yeah, I guess I am... I guess you're right. I did lose trust." I wanna just go back and say, "You know what? You did the thing-" Yeah ... [00:30:00] that lost Nathan's trust." That's right. It wasn't his fault. But he said, "What if I hadn't quit? What if I had made them?

What if I had said no? I, you, I did lose trust in you, but didn't quit. What would they have done?" What if he, what if he had forced them to fire him? 

Birdie Mae: That would've been an interesting story. 

Amy Fritz: Yeah. 

Birdie Mae: Would they have fired him? What do you think? 

Amy Fritz: Oh, they would've figured out a way to put him on a performance plan and- 

Birdie Mae: Yep

Amy Fritz: uh, said that he was f- you know. But, like, there would be nothing except for that he disagreed with leadership on this. Like, would've, it'd been really hard to find something. I mean, they could probably find something that I had done that maybe reflected... The, the Ramsey Entreleadership book about Dave's, like, blueprint on how to run a business has a whole section about how you interview the spouse, 'cause you wanna make sure they're not married to crazy.[00:31:00] 

Birdie Mae: Which 

Amy Fritz: by the way- And generally they're talking about a woman as being the spouse ... 

Birdie Mae: which makes me so angry when I heard about that, that I, I remember when all this stuff came out about you and about other spouses, I was like, what, what, why is that even a thing? Like, my husband worked for FedEx. Ain't nobody at FedEx ever checked up on me.

Nobody ever said, "How's she, how's Crazy doing?" 'Cause they would've not- 

Amy Fritz: Dorri, I wish you were our lamp post lady. 

Birdie Mae: Listen- 

Amy Fritz: That's the name of the, the, the legal name of the company is The Lampo Group. 

Birdie Mae: Yes. 

Amy Fritz: You could've been a Lampo lady. Yeah, I probably could've been the one that made everything fall apart for Nathan, but he did quit.

He did not let them, he did not have them fire them. But I wonder if there is something powerful, every situation is different, about staying in a place and just being yourself, having integrity with what you believe is faithful following [00:32:00] Jesus- Yeah ... even when it might make it easier for some of the powers that be if you weren't there.

Birdie Mae: Well, I'm, I, 

Amy Fritz: I reckon- It's a hard decision to make. I don't think there is a one answer for it 

Birdie Mae: I don't, uh, because there's the... Because for me, it's the, it's the push/pull of, because in that conversation when somebody stood up and said they can't serve here, somehow we ended up going down the rabbit hole and talking about, we talked about the guy who worked at Walmart and wore makeup and high heels, and everybody talked how bad he was and how, how awful he was, and what bathroom did he use.

And I finally said, "Do we really, really, really, we go- we care about bathrooms that people use?" Uh, listen, it was ridiculous. And to the point that then they started talking about the pulpit and how we gotta protect the pulpit. And finally, finally, I had had enough, and I said, "You realize you're sitting in the denomination that spent over $12 million to supposedly to investigate the assault charges against women, and they used the [00:33:00] money to protect the, the as- the, those who were the assaulters."

Amy Fritz: Mm-hmm. 

Birdie Mae: And that whole room went deadly quiet. And then and then, and then the person goes, "Let's get back to our lesson." I was like, "Yeah, let's, let's do that." 

Amy Fritz: Yeah. Yeah. 

Birdie Mae: So I think for me, I don't know. I don't know. Um, I'm meeting with the pastor next week. Day by 

Amy Fritz: day 

Birdie Mae: you figure it out. Yeah. It's da- it truly is, it's day by day, and it's, it's when I get up in the morning, what is the Holy Spirit telling me?

I love corporate worship, Amy. It's the people. And one time I was sitting on the first row and one of my earrings came off during worship. I was just getting into it, and it slung all the way up to the very front right there in front of the pulpit, and my husband said, "You better leave it there." I said, "I will not.

That is my good earring, and somebody's gonna step on it." So I got up in the middle of church, I got my earring. I have priorities, my friend. Yeah. But this Sunday, it was so funny because I have four broken ribs, um, right now, even as we speak, and it, so it hurts to sit for a long time. So I told my [00:34:00] husband, I said, "Let's not sit in the front in case we need to, you know, dip out."

We sat on the back row, and I was like, "Well, this is always weird," because, you know, I started the back row as where I see it. And we even commented, "Things look real different from back here." 

Amy Fritz: Yeah. Yeah. 

Birdie Mae: And they do, because I'm paying attention to everything that's being said. I'm paying attention to all the context, not just the words that are being preached to me or spoken over me.

Amy Fritz: Yeah. Who's sitting near you in the metaphorical and literal back row? 

Birdie Mae: In the metaphorical, it's me and, um, a bunch of women just like me, and my husband. God love him. Um- Yeah ... uh, in the metaphorical- And, 

Amy Fritz: and men that aren't, uh, threatened by strong 

Birdie Mae: women And men that aren't threatened by strong women. Yeah.

And there are some. I mean, I've met them Uh, [00:35:00] in the literal, we're Baptist, we don't sit next to each other. There was me and my husband, there was two empty seats, and there was another couple. I don't know them. They probably knew. Um, uh, but I will tell you, my TikTok Live community has asked me if we, if we can be church, and I'm like, "I don't want to pastor you people.

I'm not... That's not my calling." Yeah. 

Amy Fritz: Yeah. 

Birdie Mae: People say, "Women can become a pastor?" I said, "Women can become pastors. I do not want to be one, but y'all can," 'cause I don't feel that call. Um, although the Lord did give me a flock of a bunch of people. 

Amy Fritz: I really feel like a healthy community welcomes people to do community together that don't all agree on every last thing, and are, and we are better for it.

Birdie Mae: Absolutely. 

Amy Fritz: Um, because there's something I don't know that I'm missing, something you don't know that you're missing. We could learn from each other. But like when you make everybody think the exact same thing, we lose that ability to [00:36:00] learn from each other. And when we say with our literal words that, you know, these top level things are the non-negotiables, but then we act like the secondary, tertiary, and all the fourth and fifth things are actually just as important.

We act like all these other people aren't gonna be in heaven. 

Birdie Mae: Yeah, like we've got the secret sauce. 

Amy Fritz: And, right? Like when... I don't know about that. I, I think there's... I really trust that the God of the universe is not gonna ask me, ha- has me feel like, that I don't have to pass a test with all the right answers to get in.

And so I, that's sort of, I'm thinking like, I, I want to have conversations with people that are willing to hear me say something different, and that they are will- I'm willing to hear them say something that I go, "I'm not sure about that." Yes. And can we also agree that we both love Jesus, and what do we do with that?[00:37:00] 

Birdie Mae: Exactly. And you know what? I'm so good with people that say, "You know what? I just don't even know if I believe in Jesus." That's okay. That's okay. I do, and if you're good with that, we can have conversation. What broke my heart more than anything when I came out and told a group, a pretty large group of people th- who Birdie Mae was, um, I- Uninvited from a few things because I no longer fit.

I do not, I am not in any way casting any sort of anything on the people that uninvited me. I encouraged them to uninvite me. I said, "I don't believe I fit. I never really did, but y'all didn't know because I kept quiet." And I said, "But I'm very vocal now, so this is gonna make your people uncomfortable." And both of the...

It was conference directors. Mm-hmm. Both said, "You're right. It will." And I said, "I will graciously bow out." And, and, uh, uh, no- absolutely nothing against them, but [00:38:00] one thing broke my heart. I had someone who I was mentoring, not spiritual, not a... I'm not sp- I wasn't a spiritual mentor. I was a professional mentor.

I was helping her, uh, coach storytelling. And so, uh, and we had been working together, and she said, "I can no longer be in community with you." I was like, "Excuse me. Do what?" Because we don't believe. I said, "We both love Jesus." And, and at this point she had never asked me one question. 

Amy Fritz: Mm-hmm. 

Birdie Mae: And she made the assumption that we were...

What was the word? That I had, I had lost my way from spiritual truth. 

Amy Fritz: Mm. 

Birdie Mae: I... To say that ticked me off is... It made me mad, and then later it made me hurt. 

Amy Fritz: Yeah. 

Birdie Mae: Because I always thought, "Well, then why would anybody wanna be in community with you?" I have to walk lockstep. And whenever I think of [00:39:00] lockstep, I think of German Nazi soldiers.

You gotta walk- Yeah ... just like they do. You gotta do the right walk, the right talk. All the things I felt when I returned to the church after being out of it from a young teenager, when I returned to the church, all the things I felt, like I had to do the right thing, say the right thing, wear the right clothes.

Because I mean, I was, I was an unwed mother. I worked as a bartender. I married a man who was divorced. I mean, I had so many strikes against me, it's a wonder the church didn't just fall down on top of me when I walked in. But I didn't... But nobody knew it because I pretended. I had the just right kids. I have since apologized to my two daughters for being such a mm, you know what.

But, but I thought that's what I had to do to fit in. 

Amy Fritz: Yeah. 

Birdie Mae: Nobody said it out loud, but it was always implied. 

Amy Fritz: Yeah. 

Birdie Mae: [00:40:00] This is who... Oh, you know her. She had to get married. You know so-and-so. She doesn't go to church regular like. And then, Amy, I became the very person that I was afraid of. 

Amy Fritz: Yeah. Um, this reminds me of the conversation I had with Angela Wesley from the ProGrace Ministry, who's trying to like expand the abortion conversation beyond pro-life and pro-choice.

Mm-hmm. And, um, she said what we've learned in the research is that no one's coming to the church for help. We're sending a message that says, "Don't, don't come." 

Birdie Mae: Don't come. 

Amy Fritz: And so I thought of that when you said that. It's so sad to me that somebody would hear you say, "Here's some things that I believe strongly," and like you s- have said, like didn't ask follow-up questions, didn't s- uh, couldn't even say, "I'm not sure.

Let's talk more about that." It was like a disqualifier. S- you know, there's cer- we've learned quickly there's certain [00:41:00] things that are just disqualify you immediately. 

Birdie Mae: Yeah. 

Amy Fritz: And other things are given a pass, right? Yeah. And that feels, you know, inconsistent and awkward and- I, I can understand how some of these questions about being affirming or not, there's a big, there's big questions.

They have- Big questions ... big implications. Yeah. But I, what I don't love is people saying, "We disagree, so we're n- you know, like, you're out." 

Birdie Mae: The, the one I hear a lot is, "Well, you don't love people." I'm like, "Excuse me?" "Oh, you, if you loved 'em, if you loved them, you wouldn't let 'em live in sin." Of course, my follow-up is, "Do you tell every fat person you know that they're living in sin?"

Amy Fritz: I have bad news. I've been living in sin every time I overeat. 

Birdie Mae: Same. Every time I gossip. Every- Yeah ... but nobody's ever gonna call you up and go, "Hey, sis. Hey, sis. I love you, but girl, you got to stop that gossiping." Nobody's gonna do [00:42:00] that. Nobody's gonna call you up and go, "Amy, I saw what you got over at the breakfast bar."

Somebody says, "But that's how you love 'em." I'm like, "No, that's how you, that's how you turn 'em away from Jesus." So s- here's my, here's my suggestion. Don't be loving 'em. Just stop loving 'em. Stop it. If that's loving them. Just stop. Stop loving the peoples. Just don't love 'em, darling. Yeah. You just stay away from 'em, okay?

Amy Fritz: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Birdie Mae: It's just dangerous. It's so dangerous. Yeah. And there's nowhere that Jesus told us to fix people. 

Amy Fritz: Yeah. My faith, I feel like the Holy Spirit, Jesus is trying to teach me that I don't have to have this anxious, I-need-to-figure-it-out thing. What if I just trust that God has it, and that if He has work to do in someone else's life, He will do it?

If He wants something different for them, or if He wants the same thing for them, He will [00:43:00] make that happen. I don't need to spend my energy Policing people, you know, making sure they're the right kind of Christian when I don't know what God, I don't know what God's doing in their life. And- 

Birdie Mae: Exactly ... 

Amy Fritz: it's not easy, but I feel like when I lean into it, it feels like a relief.

It feels like, "Oh my goodness, I didn't want that job anyways." It's exhausting. 

Birdie Mae: And I look at the church and I say, "Darlings, aren't y'all tired? Aren't you tired of trying to make everybody look like you?" 

Amy Fritz: Yeah. 

Birdie Mae: Don't you just, exactly what you said, don't y'all just wanna lean into the Holy Spirit and let Him do some work?

Just, a- and I believe that's what the Holy Spirit's asking us to do. I felt like the Holy Spirit, a few years ago, finally told me, He said, "Well, if you'd shut up, you could hear something." 

Amy Fritz: Mm. 

Birdie Mae: And, uh, just learning to sit in silence, which is real hard for me 'cause I'm real mouthy. But learning just [00:44:00] to sit and receive over consistently telling the Holy Spirit what He needs to do.

It... Here's the thing, God is God. I am not, you aren't, they aren't, nobody else is. He's got this thing figured out. Now, does He wanna use us? Yes, I believe He does, but I think He wants us to, what did He tell us? Love people. Love God first, love people second. Do that, and the rest of it's gonna sort itself out.

Amy Fritz: Yeah. As we wrap up, what would you say to the woman that feels exhausted defending her place and ability to use the gifts God's given her? 

Birdie Mae: I say, "Honey, find somewhere that wants you. Find somewhere that appreciates you for who you are. And if you can't find it, darling, make your own." [00:45:00] That's what I did.

Amy Fritz: That's a good note to end on. I am gonna send all of my listeners to your Substack. I want them to check out Birdie Mae. Thank you. You guys are gonna love getting to know Birdie better and, uh, just sort of processing what it means to sit in the back row, still love Jesus, be willing to say the things out loud.

I think we can do that. I 

Birdie Mae: think we can. 

Amy Fritz: Thanks so much, Birdie. 

Birdie Mae: Thank you so much for having me, Amy. 

Amy Fritz: Thanks so much for listening to my conversation with Birdie. I'd love for you to check out the show notes where you can find links that show you how you can follow her work. If you wanna connect with me, you can find me on Threads as Amy Henning Fritz or Amy Fritz on Blue Sky and at Untangled Faith on Instagram.

If you prefer email, send me a note to amy@untangledfaithpodcast.com. Thanks, everybody. I'll see you soon.